Wi-Fi on Mars? Why network technology is mission-critical to keeping analog astronauts connected

00:00:00: [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03: From 5G networks to aerospace systems,

00:00:06: from artificial intelligence to quantum technologies,

00:00:11: from behind the scenes of innovations

00:00:14: to real-world applications.

00:00:17: Welcome to Innovations Unplugged, the Rode and Schwarz

00:00:22: Technology Podcast.

00:00:25: We are going to take a journey from our everyday digital

00:00:29: landscapes to the rugged terrains of Mars.

00:00:32: We'll take a deep dive into analog missions to Mars

00:00:36: conducted by the Austrian Space Forum.

00:00:39: These analog missions simulate life on Mars

00:00:42: to prepare for future human exploration.

00:00:46: My name is Inga Müller-Siedentop,

00:00:48: and I'm your host today.

00:00:56: Joining us are two esteemed guests

00:00:59: from the Austrian Space Forum.

00:01:02: Among a lot of exciting things they will share with us

00:01:05: why a typical day on an analog mission

00:01:09: begins with the installation of network technology

00:01:12: from Lernkomm Systems, a proud member of the Rode

00:01:16: and Schwarz family.

00:01:23: As a child, Dr. Gernot Grömer dreamt of becoming either

00:01:28: a helicopter pilot or a professional musician.

00:01:33: Fast forward a few decades, he holds a doctorate in astrophysics,

00:01:38: is a founding member and director of the Austrian Space

00:01:41: Forum, and calls himself the dinosaur of the analog astronauts.

00:01:49: Welcome, Gernot.

00:01:50: My gosh, you did a hell of a lot of research.

00:01:53: I'm in between being embarrassed and proud.

00:01:56: I didn't know that about you.

00:01:58: We'll talk about that later.

00:02:01: Brings us to our next guest.

00:02:04: Her career reads like an adventure.

00:02:08: Via training as a hairdresser, a degree in mathematics

00:02:12: and a doctorate in physics, Dr. Carmen Kühler finally

00:02:18: became an analog astronaut.

00:02:20: Welcome, Carmen.

00:02:22: Really happy to be here.

00:02:24: Thank you.

00:02:25: Let's get started.

00:02:26: Your path into space exploration really is one of a kind.

00:02:30: So after graduating from school, you became a hairdresser.

00:02:35: Chit chatting with one of your clients,

00:02:37: you found the courage to study mathematics

00:02:40: and ended up getting a doctorate in physics.

00:02:44: But this is not the end of your extraordinary story.

00:02:48: You even became the first female analog astronaut

00:02:52: at the Austrian Space Forum's Mars simulations.

00:02:55: You are an AI and data expert.

00:02:59: You are the founder and CEO of a company

00:03:02: that specializes in weather and Earth observation data

00:03:07: services.

00:03:09: Quick question to begin with.

00:03:12: Why?

00:03:13: What drives you?

00:03:15: I think what drives me is curiosity,

00:03:18: that I always think like, oh, why not?

00:03:20: You can always try.

00:03:21: And if you fail, you still learned.

00:03:22: I think it's really interesting what

00:03:24: we can learn in this life that we have at the moment.

00:03:26: And I was always curious also about space.

00:03:29: So what I really, really loved back then was a bit of media.

00:03:32: I grew up without a television at first,

00:03:34: but then it took over in the afternoons.

00:03:37: And I really loved to watch "Star Trek" and "MacGyver."

00:03:41: And MacGyver, for me, was a total hero.

00:03:44: And he was able to fix a fighter airplane with chewing gum,

00:03:49: things like that.

00:03:50: And I thought it was absolutely amazing.

00:03:52: And then "Star Trek" I really loved because of the whole universe

00:03:56: and doing the exploration there and going from planet to planet

00:04:00: and meeting different species.

00:04:01: And I thought that was really interesting.

00:04:03: And for me, always MacGyver on "Star Trek"

00:04:07: is kind of like an astronaut.

00:04:09: And that's really what I wanted to be.

00:04:11: And so when I finished my mathematics degree,

00:04:13: I already saw that there was a position

00:04:16: open for a PhD, which was together with Lufthansa

00:04:19: and the Flight Security and the German Aerospace

00:04:21: Center and the German Weather Service.

00:04:23: And that was really amazing for me.

00:04:25: And it was a project about how the aviation impacts climate

00:04:29: with the contrails, not chemtrails, please.

00:04:34: So I thought that was super fascinating.

00:04:36: So I applied and they took me.

00:04:39: And so I was working at the German Aerospace Center

00:04:41: and was working also at the German Weather Service

00:04:44: and improving the numerical weather prediction model there.

00:04:47: And it's something that I really noticed that it's my passion.

00:04:49: And that's also why I founded my company amongst those topics.

00:04:53: I think your career is like a great point

00:04:55: for some more screen time "Star Trek" related.

00:04:59: So analog Mars mission, analog astronauts.

00:05:04: So let's shed some light on this.

00:05:07: What is an analog space mission?

00:05:10: Why do we need analog astronauts?

00:05:12: And why is Mars such a compelling focus

00:05:15: for space exploration today?

00:05:18: Gennad, what do you mind?

00:05:20: When we go to Mars, it is the most ambitious and probably

00:05:24: the most complex journey we've ever undertaken as humans.

00:05:27: Like just for comparison, the distance of the moon,

00:05:30: where we went in the '60s and '70s, is like 380,000 kilometers.

00:05:35: Mars can be a way like a 380 million kilometers.

00:05:38: That's about the factor of 1,000.

00:05:40: That means that given all the complexities for such a mission,

00:05:44: there's probably around 1,000 ways how to die on Mars.

00:05:48: And with this research, we maybe can figure out 800 of those.

00:05:53: So we are there to mimic the challenges and opportunities,

00:05:57: the strategies, the workflows, decision-making trees,

00:06:00: technologies, materials, and so on,

00:06:02: including the human factor, to see how you can conduct research

00:06:08: on Mars.

00:06:09: So what we're doing is we're going to Mars-like locations

00:06:13: on Earth, like Oman, like the North of Sahara,

00:06:16: like Israel, like the Caucasus, like last year.

00:06:20: And we're deploying there a crew of very carefully selected

00:06:23: analog astronauts, typically six individuals,

00:06:26: highly trained, very carefully selected.

00:06:28: They go there as the flight crew on the quotation marks.

00:06:31: For typically two to four weeks, experiments

00:06:34: pertinent to geoscience, robotics, human factors,

00:06:38: and the supervision of a mission supporter back here on Earth.

00:06:42: And that is in Vienna.

00:06:43: Living in these Mars-like environments

00:06:46: must present unique challenges.

00:06:48: Carmen, could you take us with you

00:06:52: on a typical day of an analog mission?

00:06:56: So one typical day on Mars, for example, in Armenia last year,

00:07:00: is that we wake up at around 7 o'clock.

00:07:02: We have breakfast.

00:07:03: And then we have the first meeting, the briefing,

00:07:06: where we get a daily activity plan and really discuss

00:07:08: what we'll do during the day.

00:07:10: So we always have two space simulators.

00:07:13: And those two people are in this space suit

00:07:15: similar to that day, and conduct different experiments.

00:07:18: So the interesting part is then that everybody

00:07:21: says hands-on, because we're six analog astronauts.

00:07:23: So you really have all hands-on during the dawning,

00:07:26: so putting on the suit.

00:07:27: And that takes two hours.

00:07:29: So we have three different layers of the space suit simulator.

00:07:31: And everything has to be perfectly in place.

00:07:33: The communication has to be in place.

00:07:35: Everything is tested beforehand, because as soon as we go out,

00:07:38: it's life-threatening.

00:07:40: And then basically the experiments

00:07:42: that are being conducted are sometimes also farther away.

00:07:45: And that's why we also need the good network to be set up.

00:07:50: And then normally, it's four hours

00:07:52: that you're outside conducting the experiments.

00:07:54: And then you come back, and then you

00:07:56: have the dawning that you take off the space suit simulator.

00:07:59: And then we have a debriefing.

00:08:00: We have to watch over the experiments

00:08:01: that everything is put in place.

00:08:03: And also there, we have different things to do.

00:08:06: We have a lot for human factors, also

00:08:07: where we have a lot of questionnaires.

00:08:09: Also, if we took for geological samples of that,

00:08:12: it has to be documented, all of the data is then sent also

00:08:15: to Earth, of course, securely.

00:08:18: And then we have dinner, and also then debriefing.

00:08:22: And most of the time, we then prepare for the next days

00:08:24: or see what's open still.

00:08:26: That's a typical day on Mars.

00:08:28: Do you remember the first time you were packed in the suit?

00:08:31: Oh, I absolutely remember that.

00:08:33: There was a test version where we were at the Austrian Space

00:08:36: Forum, was during the training.

00:08:39: And so we put it on, and it weighs around 50 kilos.

00:08:43: And I knew that theoretically, but theory and practice

00:08:46: is always something different.

00:08:47: And then I put it on, and I was like, ah, OK,

00:08:50: I need to go to the gym.

00:08:51: When we picture you as analog astronauts

00:08:59: trekking through the deserts of the world

00:09:01: or hiking on glaciers for several weeks,

00:09:04: you're packed from head to toe.

00:09:06: Everyone is in their space suits with huge helmets

00:09:10: on their heads and backpacks loaded with high-tech gear.

00:09:15: Gannard, in everyday life when we want to communicate,

00:09:18: we just reach for our mobile devices.

00:09:21: I guess on Mars and probably in a very terrestrial desert,

00:09:26: mobile communication is not a given.

00:09:28: So how did you solve the problem of communication

00:09:31: and connectivity in the field?

00:09:33: I assume this has to do something with Lancome.

00:09:37: Yes.

00:09:39: There are several aspects of this.

00:09:40: Communication is not a given, but it's a necessity.

00:09:43: It's vital to us.

00:09:46: One of the many things that are really dangerous in the space

00:09:49: slide is not knowing what's going on.

00:09:51: So communication is as vital as oxygen to us.

00:09:55: We know that if we are dropping communication

00:09:58: between Earth and Mars, the Mars crew

00:10:01: would be in a safe position for maybe a couple of hours or so.

00:10:05: And then things started disintegrate at a point.

00:10:08: There's a problem.

00:10:08: They're on their own.

00:10:09: Nobody can help them.

00:10:11: So that applies to the habitats, the crews outside,

00:10:15: the communication to Earth.

00:10:17: So we need a super robust solution

00:10:22: that helps us to maintain communication.

00:10:24: I think one crucial part is also that we were talking

00:10:27: about the Mission Support Center a lot of times now

00:10:28: and also about the world's biggest analog.

00:10:30: I think one important thing and also what the communication is

00:10:33: that we have the communication on Mars in real time,

00:10:36: but the communication to Earth is not in real time.

00:10:38: And I think that is a huge part that is also

00:10:41: worth pointing out here because you have a lack--

00:10:45: you have a time delay when you have the communication.

00:10:47: So that's why also the communication totally

00:10:49: changes then between Earth and Mars, or simulated Mars.

00:10:53: Because we simulate a time delay of about 10 minutes

00:10:56: in each direction.

00:10:58: And normally it's around between four or 24 minutes

00:11:02: in one direction so that can add up until 50 minutes.

00:11:05: to take the average of 10 minutes within the mission. And so that changes a lot of the things,

00:11:10: which is also what I think really important to think about that with the communication,

00:11:14: which is why it's not the mission control center. Like with Houston, we've got a problem,

00:11:18: but when we say Vienna, we have a problem with the mission support center, then they hear it

00:11:24: 10 minutes later. And the important thing, and this was one of the reasons why we had this

00:11:30: longstanding conversations and cooperation with Lancom was you put it in, you plug it in,

00:11:36: you power it up, and the thing works. And these are my favorite tools where I don't have to think

00:11:41: a lot. I've got a number of other things to be concerned with. It's not the communication. Lancom

00:11:47: is part of the critical infrastructure, bluntly speaking. And that's a sticker you don't get

00:11:55: so easily from Austrian Space Forum. We only allow things that are critical core systems when we've

00:12:01: fully trust them. Let's dive deeper into what what we are offering as a as a company. So to

00:12:07: maintain our high quality standards, flexibility and reliability, Rode and Schwarz covers a

00:12:14: significant share of the value chain in-house. Most of our products are developed in Germany,

00:12:21: Lancom systems and other subsidiaries in Germany and Europe complement the group's

00:12:28: solution portfolio. Gennert, having this in mind, how important is it for a European based

00:12:35: analog mission like the ones of the Austrian Space Forum to rely on technology engineered in Europe?

00:12:45: It is about making sure what do we have and where do we have dependencies.

00:12:52: And this is a topic that is as a director of the Austrian Space Forum. And speaking with my

00:12:58: personal opinion, this is not necessarily the opinion of the organization I represent,

00:13:03: is that a European autonomy and sovereignty is not a luxury. And so having supply chains that

00:13:13: are as independent as possible that are resilient, that are technically at the edge of what can be

00:13:19: done are extremely important. So on a broader scale, thinking globally, how do you think the

00:13:25: relationship between European companies like Rode and Schwarz and national space agencies

00:13:32: around the world contributes to this? Well, the work we're doing in the space field is always

00:13:41: at the edge of what's technically possible. So some of the solutions we developed for going to

00:13:48: Mars or staying in orbit and having their resilient satellite network might not be 100%

00:13:54: necessary in everything we do on the ground. But it is the frontier where because of the harsh

00:14:00: conditions that the edge of being doable is an innovation driver. So there is both a lot of

00:14:08: spin outs, spin offs, where we have technologies developed for for space that are used here on

00:14:12: Earth, spin ins that go the other way. We have one of the most important innovation drivers

00:14:20: every day in front of our faces. And that's necessity. The necessity to be resilient, to be

00:14:30: top of the game, to be robust. A value we both share with Lancome and the Australian Space Forum.

00:14:38: As a personal background story to this, we've been asked maybe a few times before,

00:14:44: oh, why did we choose Lancome? There are other providers that maybe the brands are maybe more

00:14:51: well known because they're bigger players, whatever. And we said, well, it might be that the

00:14:59: router from the other company might do the same job. But it's also about the culture of the company,

00:15:05: the flexibility, this innovation driven mindset. This is a partnership that goes beyond a brand.

00:15:12: And that's as always, it's always about the people.

00:15:15: So Carmen, you also worked with with the technology, with the network setup, giving

00:15:25: these surroundings, these settings, the conditions for network technology in a Mars simulation must

00:15:32: be really unusually harsh compared to a standard office environment for a Wi-Fi connection,

00:15:39: as we know it. What do we have to imagine? Which situation left the greatest impression on you

00:15:44: thinking about the weather conditions or circumstances surrounding their technology?

00:15:49: The Mars-like regions on Earth are per definition extreme environments. So we will meet extreme

00:15:56: conditions. And I have one situation in mind in Oman, for example, where we had a sandstorm.

00:16:02: And then we have to totally cover up. That was the point where we were still allowed to exit the

00:16:06: habitat without the space simulator. And so we had to totally cover up. We had to ski goggles,

00:16:11: like we were going against the sandstorm. And then we had to make sure, of course, with the antennas

00:16:15: that everything is fine. And those situations, you really keep in mind. We had to really make

00:16:20: sure that everything is fine. And in general, when we knew that there was a lot of wind,

00:16:24: that we had to kind of see that the technology is safe, not only the humans, but also technology

00:16:29: is absolutely crucial. We want to survive with that on Mars, right? The camels in Morocco were

00:16:36: finding out quite quickly that the heating element of the Lanka routers is quite warm. And if it's

00:16:41: in February, it's very cold. So they started to rub their shoulders on the routers. And although

00:16:46: we had pinned them down, they were able to top them over. So we had to station somebody from our

00:16:51: American partners to guard the routers during the night when it was a bit of cold and shiny.

00:16:57: The Austrian Space Forum specializes in Mars missions, in analog Mars missions. But there's

00:17:09: something even bigger coming up this year. Oh, yeah. We've been doing this for 20 years now.

00:17:14: And just to give you a sense of the scale here, when we go to a desert, we have typically people

00:17:19: from like 25 nations, more than 200 researchers, medical doctors, engineers, psychologists, and

00:17:25: so on. So these are pretty big projects already. But we say we can go one step beyond that. And

00:17:31: there is a project called the world's biggest analog. And I know it's kind of a weird name,

00:17:38: but it really hits it on the spot. Because it means that when we are looking globally,

00:17:43: there are other groups that are operating habitats for lunar exploration, Mars exploration,

00:17:50: spacecraft and transit, for instance. So we are teaming up with habitats across the world,

00:17:57: from Brazil to Portugal, from the Caucasus to India, from Kenya to Oman, from Poland to wherever.

00:18:05: And we say, what about a future where we're not talking about the first human robotic

00:18:10: mission to Mars anymore? But what if we project the future, like 20 years afterwards, when we have

00:18:17: like half a dozen of stations on the moon, half a dozen of stations on Mars, a spacecraft and transit,

00:18:22: this is going to be a huge operational challenge. If you just think of how many people you need to

00:18:30: devise the flight plan for an astronaut on the International International Space Station.

00:18:34: And now we're talking about like, what 70 100 astronauts or so. And we we are having the

00:18:40: mission coordination center, as we call it in Vienna, which is at the center of the eye of the

00:18:45: storm. That means we're trying to figure out what is the best, you know, schedules, managing science

00:18:53: data, looking into weather predictions, a lot of services we provide here. So we'll be mentally

00:19:01: on at least two planetary bodies at the same time, having to jump mentally from one station

00:19:07: to the other in, you know, four continents, a half a dozen time zones, and still have

00:19:13: situation awareness. I can promise you what's going to happen in October, second half of October,

00:19:19: it's going to be a mess. But it's going to be a necessary mess. Because we need to figure out

00:19:26: where are the strengths of our plannings, where are the weaknesses. And that's exactly what we do

00:19:32: as the austrian spaceform. We have this development mantra of fail fast, fail cheap, but have a

00:19:38: steep learning curve. And that's exactly what we're going to practice to the biggest extent

00:19:42: we can imagine. I'm both excited and scared and anxious. But also, I see there's so much potential

00:19:50: in these type of missions that October is going to be a blast. Great. Thank you for sharing.

00:19:56: We're coming to an end. But I do have two last questions, quick question, quick answer kind of

00:20:04: thing. Gennot, when will humans step their foot onto Mars? Our current projections say within the

00:20:13: next 20 to 30 years, which means if we assume the person who will walk on Mars will be around, let's

00:20:19: say 40 years more of the experience side or so, it actually means that the very first humans to be

00:20:25: walking on Mars are already born or just attending an elementary school in Beijing, a high school in

00:20:31: New York, who knows. So the very crew for this most ambitious journey, the most complex endeavor

00:20:39: we've ever undertaken in society, this crew exists already. They just don't know it yet.

00:20:46: Carmen, you are not the one who's graduating from school right now. But what is your expectation

00:20:53: talking about flying to Mars? Is that something that's still in your mind? I wouldn't call it an

00:20:57: expectation. It's more a dream. And I definitely dream about going to space. I would love to go

00:21:02: on another planetary body. If it's not Mars, I would love to go to the Moon, especially because

00:21:07: I love Earth so much in the atmosphere as well. And I would love to see the Earth from the Moon

00:21:11: because we have to think about when we travel to Mars, we only see the Earth like we see Mars from

00:21:17: here, right? So from here, Mars is a small red dot. And so when we're on Mars, Earth is a pale

00:21:24: blue dot. It's also a book, which is very good. But so my dream is still going to space to the

00:21:33: Moon or to Mars. Yes. Fascinating to see how technology and in this case technology engineered

00:21:38: in Europe is already paving the way for future space explorations. Thank you, Carmen. Thank you,

00:21:44: Gernot, for being with us and sharing your insights. A pleasure. Thank you, Inge. And thanks to our

00:21:51: listeners for tuning into this episode. If you enjoyed it, leave us a like and join us next time

00:21:57: as we continue to explore technologies shaping our world and even beyond as we learned today.